Cities with best players (October 23, 2003)
In the comments of Sean's article about the Redsox, among other things, I said Boston is lucky to have had the pleasure of all-time top 10 players in their sport. Baseball (Ted Williams), Hockey (Orr and arguably Bourque), Basketball (Bird, Russell).
Another reader chimed in with Detroit: Ty Cobb, Gordie Howe (and arguably Steve Yzerman), Barry Sanders, and arguably Isaiah Thomas.
While this little exercise will probably not resolve anything, as the all-time top 10 players will probably have 25 players in each sport, what other 3-sport or better towns have there been with such players?
--posted by TangoTiger at 11:07 AM EDT
Posted 12:03 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#1) -
Bob Dobalina
Shaq, Gretzky, and two other guys.
Posted 12:06 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#2) -
Mooser
Toronto:
Very arguably
Baseball: Roger Clemens (likely top 25)
Hockey: Johnny Bauer
Basketball: Hakeem Olujuwon (cup of coffee)
Posted 12:12 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#3) -
tangotiger
Uhhhh... only look at their prime years.... Not sure if Gretz post 88 would still be "top 10" level.... might be though.
Posted 1:05 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#4) -
bunnygrunt
New York can claim LT, the Babe, Gehrig, Clemens, and Messier, all of whom would make many if not most Top Ten lists, plus Walt Frazier and Phil Esposito who would make some
Chicago can counter with Butkus, Sweetness, Jordan, and Bobby Hull
Posted 1:34 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#5) -
Andrew Edwards
Montreal has Pedro and half the greatest hockey players ever, but no football or basketball legends to mention.
Mooser has Toronto, but forgot Vince Carter.
Pittsburgh would be Clemente, Lemieux, and, well, now we find out how little I know about pro football. But surely the Steelers have had some great players.
Posted 1:35 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#6) -
Andrew Edwards
Of course, Pittsbugh had Honus Wagner too, who would have been a much better baseball player to include in that initial post.
Posted 1:42 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#7) -
tangotiger
NY: I don't follow basketball, but where do Patrick Ewing and Willis Reed fall in the "greatness" list? As for Phil Esposito: I don't think so. His best years were in Boston, and even then, I wouldn't put him in the all-time category. NY can choose from Bossy and Trottier too.
A "top 10" for hockey would include:
For sure: Gretzky (Edm), Howe (Det), Orr (Bos), Lemieux (Pit) (in whatever order you want)
The next rung would have any 6 of the (at least) following: Rocket (Mon), Beliveau (Mon), Dionne (LA), Lafleur (Mon), Bossy (NY), Trottier (NY), Messier (Edm), Bourque (Bos), Robinson (Mon), Harvey (Mon), Roy (Mon/Denv), Hasek (Buf), Plante (Mon). Yzerman (Det), Sakic (Denv), Jagr (Pit), and Forsberg (Denv) might be part of that list too.
I think Roy is probably the only legitimate 2-city star. You can argue whether 1986-1995, or 1996-2003 were his best years.
Posted 2:23 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#8) -
bob mong
We probably should agree on at least some semblance of a top-ten list for baseball, basketball, football, and hockey before we go too much farther. Or not.
Posted 3:02 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#9) -
Arvin Hsu
San Francisco has:
Barry Bonds
Joe Montana/Jerry Rice
Wilt Chamberlain/Rick Barry
Top That!
Posted 3:08 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#10) -
Arvin Hsu
(homepage)
Ranking of top 100 North American Athletes of the Century
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
For SF:
Mays #8
Chamberlain #13
Montana #25
Rice #27
Bonds would rank up there now.
I would say:
Bonds/Mays (2 of top 3 baseball players)
Chamberlain (1 of top 3 basketball ever)
Montana/Rice (2 of top 5?maybe top7?)
-Arvin
Posted 3:08 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#11) -
J Cross
50 greatest hockey players:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1689/top50nhl.html
basketball:
http://www.nba.com/history/50greatest.html
can't find this kind of list for football... we just just answer which city has the most of these:
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
Posted 3:33 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#12) -
Devin McCullen
Here's a top-of-my-head top 10 list for basketball: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Erving, West, Robertson.
Worthy of discussion: K. Malone, M. Malone, Baylor, Olajuwon, Duncan, Isiah, The Admiral, Stockton, Barkley, Pettit.
Too early to tell: Garnett, McGrady, Kobe
Cities from the top 10 (1 per player): Chicago, Boston, L.A., Philly, Cincinnati (One of these things is not like the others)
Others with claims on the top 10: Washington, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Orlando, Richmond? (wherever the Virginia Squires played), NY/Long Island
Honestly, I have a tough time taking any of that top 10 out, unless you're making a strong timeline adjustment.
Posted 3:35 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#13) -
sKoriano
NY: Ruth, LT, Lew Alcindor, and Bossy.
Posted 7:43 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#14) -
Brad
(homepage)
Atlanta...
Baseball - Hank Aaron
Basketball - Pete Maravich
Football -
Hockey -
On second thought, nevermind. ;-)
Posted 8:51 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#15) -
Steve Rohde
Although most of Messier's greatest years were with Edmonton, he did also have a number of great years in New York, including, among others, one of his MVP's(1991-1992) and another year (1993-1994) when he led the Rangers to the Stanley Cup. Messier is probably the most beloved player in New York Rangers history, so I think it is reasonable to count Messier in the NY column (as well as Edmonton).
Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed and Walt Frazier were all very great players, but I don't think any of them has a plausible case to be considered all time top 10 in basketball. And Erving played only 3 years for the New York Nets. So I think New York comes up a bit short in basketball.
San Francisco does great on this measure for baseball and football (Bonds, Mays, Montana, Rice), but it may be a stretch to count Chamberlain for basketball. He may be the greatest basketball player ever, but he only played 3 years in SF. If that qualifies, then you could count Tarkenton (5 years) in New York, although New York has Taylor for football already, so it doesn't need Tarkenton to make the list for football.
Posted 11:23 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#16) -
RossCW
Russell played for San Francisco University - does that count? How about Chamberlain with the Harlem Globetrotters?
When you reduce it down to 10 players the list gets very short. There are a lot of great players listed here who would not make a top ten.
For baseball off the top of my head:
Ruth
Cobb
Aaron
Mays
Cy Young
Ted Williams
Walter Johnson
Honus Wagner
Roger Hornsby
Jackie Robinson
Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson might get added if you include the Negro Leagues but for what city? You can make a case for Mantle, Gehrig, Musial, Matthewson, Gibson, Henderson and Koufax and probably some others but it would be a hard case.
Posted 11:52 p.m.,
October 23, 2003
(#17) -
Rob H
Devin, my recollection is that the Virginia Squires played in three different cities, sorta like the Expos, but obviously their three cities (Norfolk, Hampton, Richmond) were a lot closer together. I rather like your top ten, although IMHO Isiah should not be in the top twenty.
Posted 1:32 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#18) -
Steve Rohde
RossCW,
You list 19 players as candidates for the top 10 in baseball, but failed to list the Giants' current left fielder, who is already in 8th place in career win shares (behind only Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Aaron, Mays, Young, and Speaker), and will likely pass Speaker, Young, Mays and Aaron in career win shares next year and Wagner in 2005, and currently is 4th in career win shares per 162 games, barely behind Williams and Cobb, and only significantly trailing Ruth.
Posted 9:07 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#19) -
RP
Baseball:
Ruth
Bonds
Wagner
Johnson
Williams
Cobb
Mays
Mantle
Gehrig
Aaron
Basketball:
Jordan
Chamberlain
Bird
M. Johnson
Abdul-Jabbar
Russell
Robertson
O'Neal
West
Erving
Football:
Payton
Unitas
Rice
Sanders
Montana
Taylor
Butkus
B. Smith
Brown
R. White
I don't know enough about Hockey to make a similar list. I don't think any city can really claim a top 10 player in every sport.
Posted 9:40 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#20) -
Steve Rohde
My top 10 for hockey, looking primarily at career value, currently would be:
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Mark Messier
Ray Bourque
Patrick Roy
Mario Lemieux
Bobby Orr
Jean Beliveau
Maurice Richard
Phil Esposito
Lemieux and Orr can easily be ranked above everybody but possibly Gretzky and Howe if primary focus is given to peak value, and if Lemieux plays another couple of years he could be in the top 3 also on career value.
Because of the diminished importance of the regular season in hockey, I think a greater degree of consideration should be given to post season performance, in ranking hockey players, compared to say, ranking baseball players. This is one of the reasons I have Messier and Roy rated so highly, because both of them dramatically lifted their games in post season play.
I don't see how one can have a top 10 for football without Dan Marino being on the list.
Posted 9:59 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#21) -
RP
oops...you're right. take off B. Smith I guess.
Posted 10:13 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#22) -
mathteamcoach
Instead of discussing where players played, wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss place of birth?
Posted 10:49 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#23) -
tangotiger
The point about "where they played" was to let Boston fans know that they've been lucky to have seen such great players at their peaks (Russell, Williams, Orr).... I mean, some people would argue that each of those players were the best ever at their sport.
That hockey list looks fine except for Phil Esposito. Are you a closet Espo fan or something? I'm the biggest Roy fan, and I think Hasek is better. In terms of "career", I think Marcel Dionne probably had it better than Espo.
Posted 11:40 a.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#24) -
Steve Rohde
tango,
I would agree that Hasek had a higher peak value than Roy. But Roy's magnificent career value, combined with his tremendous post season performance, especially in 1986 and 1993 when his dominance lifted an otherwise fairly ordinary Montreal team to the Stanley Cup, makes me comfortable rating him as one of the top 5 players in history.
I don't think I am a closet Espo fan. I do think he is hard to rate. His dominance while with Boston is out of character with his excellent but not dominant play with Chicago and New York, but he had an incredible 7 year performance with Boston from 1968-1969 through 1974-75 that is hard to ignore. Dionne was great, and certainly a good case can be made for him, but his career numbers are inflated compared to Espo's to some degree because Dionne didn't play in the lower scoring 60's and he had a number of years in the high scoring 80's.
Posted 12:27 p.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#25) -
tangotiger
I'm an open anti-Espo guy, so that may have something to do with it too.
My favorite Phil Esposito moment was when Boston retired his number (#7). At the time, Ray Bourque also had #7 (for reasons I don't know, since his first year he had #29). I'm sure there was talk in the press about how can you retire a number if someone else is also wearing it, etc, etc.
Anyway, at center ice, as Bourque skates to Espo to congratulate him at the retirement ceremony, Bourque takes off his #7 jersey to reveal another jersey underneath (#77). Bourque turns around to show Espo Bourque's new number.
Espo, for one of the few times in his life, was completely speechless, and mouth gaping. The crowd cheers like crazy. Espo composes himself enough to speak over the crowd to say "I will never forget what this man just did for me."
****
My other favorite Bourque moment was when he was in Colorado (40 years old), and playing in yet another double-OT game. While everyone is in the dressing room between periods, he starts doing push-ups, and announces "Anybody here feel tired?".
****
And my last hockey story was Pavol Demitra. He had a clause in his contract to increase his salary by 500,000$ if he reached a certain milestone (I think 40 goals). In the last game with under a minute to go, he's on the ice, while the other team pulls their goalie. Pavol gets the puck, and as he's skating towards the net decides to pass it to his teammate (I think his teammate had 2 goals).
The Blues management actually wanted Pavol to score the goal, because that contract bonus was being covered by insurance. They paid the premium on it, and so, would have been happy for Pavol to collect on it.
Posted 1:32 p.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#26) -
DK
Washington DC:
Baseball - Walter Johnson.
Football - Sammy Baugh.
Basketball - Michael Jordan (haha). Best franchise player ever is either Unseld or Hayes. Neither are top 10.
Hockey - Rod Langway. He probably gets both Montreal and Washington. Again, definitely not a top 10 player. Can't count Jagr. Mike Gartner would be next in my estimation.
Not that great, although have limited years in all sports except football.
Posted 5:42 p.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#27) -
Arvin Hsu
so using the arbitrary top 10 lists posted above,
and assigning points from top-down(10-1):
San Francisco has
Bonds(9)+Mays(4)+Montana(6)+Rice(8) = 27
And If you count Chamberlain(9) as half points: 31.5
Posted 6:05 p.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#28) -
sKoriano
I am surprised at the lack of mention for Sammy Baugh, and especially George Mikan and Don Hutson? In football, the offensive linemen seem to be getting short shrift, Munoz and Hannah come to mymind.
I agree that Boston has been very lucky. Boston: take your pick of MLB: Grove or Williams or Pedro. NBA: Bird or Cousy or Russell. NHL: Orr. NFL: Hannah. I think Hannah is a very defensible pick to round out the Boston grouping.
Milwaukee/Wisconsin: Hutson, Big O (does he have to be Cincy--if he does I'd pair him with Munoz from the NFL), Aaron, NHL:?
Philly is pretty good with Grove or Foxx, Reggie White, Wilt. Hockey's a problem, I think.
Chicago: NBA: MJ, NFL: Payton or Butkus, NHL: Hull, MLB?
Pittsburgh: MLB: Wagner, NFL: Mean Joe Greee, NHL: Lemieux, NBA?
How about schools: UNC had LT and MJ. USF had Russell and Marchetti. Anyplace else have two or more?
Detroit does well with MLB: Cobb, NFL: Sanders/Night Train Lane, NHL: and Howe but I agree that Isaiah is not top 10 for the NBA.
Posted 11:13 p.m.,
October 24, 2003
(#29) -
Patriot
Schools? Sounds like a good time to plug OSU. However, we don't have any top baseball player(Frank Howard is easily our best), and while we have college football legends too many to count, our best NFL guy is probably Jim Parker. Some will tell you he's the best OG of all time, but that probably wouldn't get him ranked as a top 10 or 15 player. Hoops though, Havlicek and Lucas have to be up there somewhere. And we have the greatest golfer and T&F guy of all time.
Then Cleveland. Hmm. Bob Feller in baseball is not going to stack up. Mark Price...Larry Nance...Bingo Smith...LEBRON! That ain't gonna cut it. But we'll put Jim Brown up against anybody.
Cinci. The Big O played for the Royals and the Bearcats, so he's gotta count. Baseball, probably Joe Morgan. Football? Anthony Munoz I guess. Like Parker, might be the one of the greatest OL ever, but probably not enough to put him up with the QBs and HBs in most people's minds.
Posted 11:54 p.m.,
October 25, 2003
(#30) -
Mike Emeigh(e-mail)
The Steelers had Mean Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, LC Greenwood, Lynn Swann, and John Stallworth as top-10 candidates at their positions. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh has never been a pro basketball town. Probably the best player to play pro basketball in Pittsburgh was Connie Hawkins, who was the best player in the league in the inaugural season of the ABA. The Hawk was barred from the NBA as a result of the early-60s gambling scandals, after which he became one of the best playground players around before becoming an ABA star. By the time he finally got to the NBA, his knees were shot (and I think he was heavily into drugs, as well).
-- MWE
Posted 11:56 p.m.,
October 25, 2003
(#31) -
Mike Emeigh(e-mail)
I left out Mike Webster of the Steelers, arguably the best center ever.
-- MWE
Posted 11:58 a.m.,
October 26, 2003
(#32) -
Scoriano
LC Greenwood was a 6-time NFL Pro-Bowler and a terrific pass rushing end whose height and span permitted him to be one of the greatest defensive pass blockers of all time. Howeve, to be top 10 all-time he'd ahve to crack this list: Bob Lilly, Deacon Jones, Joe Greene, Gino Marchetti, Reggie White, Alan Page, Randy White, Bruce Smith, Bobby Bell, Buck Buchanan. I think Michael Strahan may be comparable.
I respectfully disagree about Lynn Swann, and John Stallworth.
They are both HOF-caliber to be sure, however, I would rate them behind at least the following WR's:
Rice, Cris Carter, Hutson, Largent, Monk, Lance Alworth, Raymond Berry, Elroy Hirsch, Paul Warfield, Charley Taylor, Fred Belitnikoff, and perhaps Art Monk, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
You forgot Blount, who is definitely a top 10 DB.
The Steel Curtain is in my mind easily the greatest dynasty of the NFL era. The combined talents of those teams really never has been approached.
Posted 1:22 p.m.,
October 26, 2003
(#33) -
Patriot
Cris Carter. Duh. I forgot him. He's up there with Parker for OSU.
Posted 6:50 p.m.,
October 26, 2003
(#34) -
Unfrozen Caveman Cub Fan
Shaq on the top-ten list of best basketball players is like including Harmon Killebrew on the top-ten list of best baseball players. Both are/were great for what they did (dunking and hitting homers), but that's about it.
I might put Shaq in the top 50, but I'd really have to sit down with some rosters to determine whether he actually deserved to be there.
Posted 7:28 p.m.,
October 26, 2003
(#35) -
Handy Dandy
When you talk about Milwaukee/Wisconsin, I think that you can safely put Favre in the top-10 in Football all-time making:
Oscar Robertson, Kareem (Lew Alcindor at the time), Brett Favre, Reggie White, Paul Hornung, Jim Taylor, Hank Aaron, Warren Spahn, Eddie Matthews
Posted 7:42 a.m.,
October 27, 2003
(#36) -
Ahem
I think that you can safely put Favre in the top-10 in Football all-time making
Top 10 QBs? Perhaps.
Otherwise, we don' think so.
Sincerely,
Jerry Rice, Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Lawrence Taylor, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, Don Hutson, Joe Montana, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones.
On the top 10 QB issue: In no particular order, Unitas, Graham, Elway, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, Baugh, Montana, Marino, Fouts, Staubach, Sid Luckman, Bart Starr and Steve Young (there are a fair number of "statheads" (said respectfully) that think Young is the most proficient and perhaps greatest QB of all time). I'd say Favre is comfortably placed in that list somewhere. Whether he's safely in its top 10 or not is unclear to me.
Posted 12:57 p.m.,
October 27, 2003
(#37) -
Danny
Count me among those who think Steve Young is one of the 3 greatest quarterbacks ever. In terms of baseball:
Young:Grove::Marino:Spahn
Posted 9:48 p.m.,
October 27, 2003
(#38) -
Ernie Camacho_s Elbow
Then Cleveland. Hmm. Bob Feller in baseball is not going to stack up.
Good thing we had Tris Speaker then, huh?
Cleveland:
Speaker, Jim Brown, Dougherty/Price, Johnny Bower
Hall of Famers in everything except basketball. I'll take it.
Posted 1:29 p.m.,
October 28, 2003
(#39) -
Not Ernie_s elbow
Cleveland:
Speaker, Jim Brown, Dougherty/Price, Johnny Bower
Hall of Famers in everything except basketball. I'll take it.
Top 10 in one.
Posted 2:34 p.m.,
October 28, 2003
(#40) -
Patriot
I've always considered Speaker a Red Sock. Actually looking at his record, he's about 50/50 between BOS and CLE, so I guess we can count him. The early Cy Young with the Spiders too I suppose, although Speaker is probably better.
Posted 9:56 p.m.,
November 4, 2003
(#41) -
Steve Rohde
What a night for Mark Messier. Two goals, 1851 career points, surpassing Gordie Howe for number 2 all time in NHL history. And he is only 1,006 points behind Gretzky.
Posted 8:54 p.m.,
November 11, 2003
(#42) -
Yardape(e-mail)
Rocket (Mon), Beliveau (Mon), Dionne (LA), Lafleur (Mon), Bossy (NY), Trottier (NY), Messier (Edm), Bourque (Bos), Robinson (Mon), Harvey (Mon), Roy (Mon/Denv), Hasek (Buf), Plante (Mon). Yzerman (Det), Sakic (Denv), Jagr (Pit), and Forsberg (Denv) might be part of that list too.
Terry Sawchuk should probably be on that list, too, I would think. Superficially, at least, he stacks up with the other goalies, including contemporary Plante.